WEBVTT 00:00:00.820 --> 00:00:01.410 Now? 00:00:01.410 --> 00:00:02.140 OK, cool. 00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:06.580 So today, Sam Woods is talking to us 00:00:06.580 --> 00:00:09.670 about SaaS on boarding funnels. 00:00:09.670 --> 00:00:13.270 Sam has worked with some very cool clients of all sizes. 00:00:13.270 --> 00:00:16.237 I've been working with Sam for a few years now. 00:00:16.237 --> 00:00:18.070 And he's most recently worked with companies 00:00:18.070 --> 00:00:21.670 like HubSpot and Agora, which is very huge if you're 00:00:21.670 --> 00:00:24.610 familiar at all with copywriting in particular. 00:00:24.610 --> 00:00:26.590 So he's doing lots of really cool stuff. 00:00:26.590 --> 00:00:29.700 But he decided, he agreed to come here today and talk to us 00:00:29.700 --> 00:00:30.200 about this. 00:00:30.200 --> 00:00:32.667 So Sam, I'm stoked to have you here. 00:00:32.667 --> 00:00:34.000 It's great to be here, Joanna. 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:34.958 Thanks for inviting me. And 00:00:34.958 --> 00:00:38.258 there's nothing more fun than mapping out or 00:00:38.258 --> 00:00:40.300 showing how you're going to convince people to buy stuff. 00:00:40.300 --> 00:00:41.120 So I'm excited. 00:00:41.120 --> 00:00:41.650 Right? 00:00:41.650 --> 00:00:42.150 Right? Totally. 00:00:43.250 --> 00:00:43.750 Cool. 00:00:43.990 --> 00:00:46.090 So quick housekeeping before we dive in, then, 00:00:46.090 --> 00:00:48.400 and while people are still filing in, 00:00:48.400 --> 00:00:51.550 please use Q&A if you have questions that you absolutely 00:00:51.550 --> 00:00:53.710 want Sam to answer, which he will hopefully 00:00:53.710 --> 00:00:57.130 have time to take at the end of his tutorial. 00:00:57.130 --> 00:01:00.400 Also, use chat just to say hello or anything 00:01:00.400 --> 00:01:02.260 that might come up along the way, 00:01:02.260 --> 00:01:04.435 feel free to just chat that over. 00:01:04.435 --> 00:01:05.560 Well, so I think that's it. 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:06.340 We are recording. 00:01:06.340 --> 00:01:08.350 This replay will be available. 00:01:08.350 --> 00:01:10.030 And I think we're good to go. 00:01:10.030 --> 00:01:13.298 Sam, anything else you want to add before we dive right in? 00:01:13.298 --> 00:01:14.090 I don't think so. 00:01:14.090 --> 00:01:16.190 I think I'm good to get started. 00:01:16.190 --> 00:01:16.690 Absolutely. 00:01:16.690 --> 00:01:17.190 Cool. I'm 00:01:17.190 --> 00:01:17.700 stoked. 00:01:17.700 --> 00:01:20.503 OK, well what do you have to say to us today, Sam? 00:01:20.503 --> 00:01:21.670 A lot of different things. 00:01:21.670 --> 00:01:23.045 Let me see if I can start sharing my screen, 00:01:23.045 --> 00:01:25.700 which will help everyone 00:01:25.700 --> 00:01:26.950 to see what I'm talking about. There's 00:01:26.950 --> 00:01:29.158 nothing worse than me speaking into a camera, talking 00:01:29.158 --> 00:01:32.543 about things and no one can tell what's going on. 00:01:32.543 --> 00:01:34.960 Meanwhile, people are saying hi from all over the world. 00:01:34.960 --> 00:01:35.650 So hello. 00:01:35.650 --> 00:01:37.900 Hi, everyone. 00:01:37.900 --> 00:01:38.520 So yeah. 00:01:38.520 --> 00:01:40.180 Can you see this at least? 00:01:40.180 --> 00:01:40.990 I absolutely can. 00:01:40.990 --> 00:01:41.490 Yep. 00:01:41.490 --> 00:01:42.410 We're good. 00:01:42.410 --> 00:01:43.660 I'm going to try to present. 00:01:43.660 --> 00:01:46.220 So hopefully you can still see my screen, it's just bigger. 00:01:46.220 --> 00:01:48.620 Let me know if you can still see-- 00:01:48.620 --> 00:01:49.160 We can. 00:01:49.160 --> 00:01:49.970 It's perfect. 00:01:49.970 --> 00:01:50.670 Beautiful. All 00:01:50.670 --> 00:01:51.170 right. 00:01:51.170 --> 00:01:51.670 Cool. So 00:01:51.670 --> 00:01:55.460 we're going to talk about SaaS onboarding. 00:01:55.460 --> 00:01:58.670 This is the critical period between someone signing up 00:01:58.670 --> 00:02:01.760 for a trial for however long that is 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:05.930 until they start paying for their usage in their accounts. 00:02:05.930 --> 00:02:08.669 And the goal during this time is twofold. 00:02:08.669 --> 00:02:11.060 We want to make them believe and we 00:02:11.060 --> 00:02:13.100 want to make them happy to pay. 00:02:13.100 --> 00:02:15.450 And I'll explain exactly what I mean by that. 00:02:15.450 --> 00:02:19.310 But you've all heard, and probably all know by now 00:02:19.310 --> 00:02:20.960 that when it comes to SaaS onboarding, 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:23.150 the prime objective is to get people 00:02:23.150 --> 00:02:27.110 to the so-called a-ha moment. 00:02:27.110 --> 00:02:30.470 This is where they have a revelation about where 00:02:30.470 --> 00:02:32.840 your software fits in with their process 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:36.170 or what it can help them do, whatever problem it 00:02:36.170 --> 00:02:39.710 might be solving or if it amplifies or enhances 00:02:39.710 --> 00:02:42.510 their lives in one way or another. 00:02:42.510 --> 00:02:44.390 So this is the key moment. 00:02:44.390 --> 00:02:47.060 This is when they realize the value of it. 00:02:47.060 --> 00:02:49.610 They have a clear understanding of how to use it. 00:02:49.610 --> 00:02:52.970 And they'll want to use it forever and ever. 00:02:52.970 --> 00:02:55.820 Now the trick obviously with any kind of SaaS 00:02:55.820 --> 00:02:59.930 is that you're trying to somewhat change 00:02:59.930 --> 00:03:03.530 people's behavior, which is a hard sell because it's 00:03:03.530 --> 00:03:05.930 hard to make people change, right? 00:03:05.930 --> 00:03:08.790 People changing is one of the hardest things ever. 00:03:08.790 --> 00:03:12.470 And so what you're trying to do is get your software 00:03:12.470 --> 00:03:15.260 to fit in with people's behavior as much as 00:03:15.260 --> 00:03:18.620 possible without disrupting it completely. 00:03:18.620 --> 00:03:22.520 If your software is too much of a change, 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:26.510 then you run the risk of not having them adopt it, right? 00:03:26.510 --> 00:03:30.940 And so what you want to do throughout this whole period, 00:03:30.940 --> 00:03:34.095 if your trial is 14 days, 20 days, 30 days, whatever the 00:03:34.095 --> 00:03:37.370 timeframe is, you want to get them to this place 00:03:37.370 --> 00:03:40.190 where they have an a-ha moment and where 00:03:40.190 --> 00:03:43.310 there's minimal disruption to their behavior. 00:03:43.310 --> 00:03:45.080 Or if there is some disruption, you 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:47.150 want to make it such a no-brainer 00:03:47.150 --> 00:03:51.470 that they're willing to change what they're doing to adopt 00:03:51.470 --> 00:03:53.130 your piece of software. 00:03:53.130 --> 00:03:56.640 So that's critical. 00:03:56.640 --> 00:03:59.220 To get them to this place, they need 00:03:59.220 --> 00:04:03.410 to have a major revelation that is led up to 00:04:03.410 --> 00:04:06.020 by smaller revelations. 00:04:06.020 --> 00:04:09.800 And all this means is that, with any SaaS I work with 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.100 and I think with most SaaS companies, 00:04:13.100 --> 00:04:16.339 people need to have a sense of discovery 00:04:16.339 --> 00:04:21.329 when they're using your app in order to see the value of it. 00:04:21.329 --> 00:04:27.220 And revelations, in turn, are made up of no, 00:04:27.220 --> 00:04:30.135 do, believe, feel, which is basically, 00:04:30.135 --> 00:04:31.510 you want to get them to the point 00:04:31.510 --> 00:04:34.510 where they know something, do something, believe something, 00:04:34.510 --> 00:04:39.180 and feel something in order to convert, take action, and buy. 00:04:39.180 --> 00:04:42.740 So for someone to have a revelation, 00:04:42.740 --> 00:04:47.390 you as a SaaS marketer or SaaS copywriter, CEO 00:04:47.390 --> 00:04:49.730 of your company, whatever your role is, 00:04:49.730 --> 00:04:51.680 you need to have a clear understanding of what 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:55.760 it is that people need to know, do, believe, and feel in order 00:04:55.760 --> 00:04:58.820 to have this a-ha moment where they're obviously 00:04:58.820 --> 00:05:01.992 going to use your app forever and ever and never stop. 00:05:01.992 --> 00:05:03.200 Does that makes sense so far? 00:05:03.200 --> 00:05:04.670 Know, do, believe, feel. 00:05:04.670 --> 00:05:05.960 Awesome. 00:05:05.960 --> 00:05:10.790 Now keeping that in mind, the most important thing 00:05:10.790 --> 00:05:14.000 is what they need to believe. 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:18.870 This is where behavior is either modified, adopted, or changed. 00:05:18.870 --> 00:05:21.170 So we're going to talk about all of these things. 00:05:21.170 --> 00:05:24.170 But we're especially going to zero in on beliefs, which 00:05:24.170 --> 00:05:27.250 is, what do people need to believe about your software, 00:05:27.250 --> 00:05:31.970 themselves, their work in order for them to make 00:05:31.970 --> 00:05:36.480 use of your SaaS, your app and never ever leave, right? 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:37.230 Make sense so far? 00:05:37.230 --> 00:05:38.840 We're going to zero into this belief system. 00:05:38.840 --> 00:05:40.490 Because this is where behavior changes. 00:05:40.490 --> 00:05:43.280 If you don't establish beliefs, you're going 00:05:43.280 --> 00:05:45.440 to have a very hard time adding, 00:05:45.440 --> 00:05:48.870 modifying people's behavior. 00:05:48.870 --> 00:05:51.740 Now believe and beliefs. 00:05:51.740 --> 00:05:53.750 What we believe is made up or can 00:05:53.750 --> 00:05:58.350 be established by claims, proofs, and benefits. 00:05:58.350 --> 00:06:00.950 So if I want to establish a belief with someone, 00:06:00.950 --> 00:06:06.140 let's say that I have a piece of software like Hotjar, 00:06:06.140 --> 00:06:06.640 for example. 00:06:06.640 --> 00:06:09.610 It captures mouse clicks and heat maps. 00:06:09.610 --> 00:06:11.132 Now I need to believe-- 00:06:11.132 --> 00:06:13.340 one of the things they need to be about that software 00:06:13.340 --> 00:06:17.110 is that a heat map's going to help me optimize a page that 00:06:17.110 --> 00:06:18.130 shows that heat map. 00:06:18.130 --> 00:06:19.840 So I need to believe that. 00:06:19.840 --> 00:06:24.790 In order for me to believe it, you as a marketer to me 00:06:24.790 --> 00:06:28.540 as a user, you need to show me claims, proofs, 00:06:28.540 --> 00:06:30.730 proof of those claims, and benefits 00:06:30.730 --> 00:06:33.820 in terms of what that claim is going to help me do. 00:06:33.820 --> 00:06:37.000 So for example, a claim would be that heat maps 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:40.550 helps me optimize my sales page so I can get more conversions. 00:06:40.550 --> 00:06:41.380 That's a claim. 00:06:41.380 --> 00:06:44.210 For me to believe it, I need to see proof of it. 00:06:44.210 --> 00:06:47.230 And I also need to understand the benefits of then using 00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:49.570 the heat maps, what it's going to look like in my life 00:06:49.570 --> 00:06:51.600 and for myself. 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:52.380 So far so good? 00:06:52.380 --> 00:06:53.430 You're with me? 00:06:53.430 --> 00:06:53.970 Beautiful. 00:06:53.970 --> 00:06:55.387 So I'm laying the groundwork here, because 00:06:55.387 --> 00:06:58.110 most people approach funnels 00:06:58.110 --> 00:07:00.690 and onboarding from a mechanics point of view 00:07:00.690 --> 00:07:03.360 as in, they think about, what blog posts should I write? 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:04.120 What landing page? 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:05.310 What emails? 00:07:05.310 --> 00:07:06.357 When do they come? 00:07:06.357 --> 00:07:08.190 Pretty much like the email you sent earlier, 00:07:08.190 --> 00:07:09.843 Joanna, when you described, here's 00:07:09.843 --> 00:07:11.510 how most people put together onboarding. 00:07:11.510 --> 00:07:13.093 It's just a mishmash. 00:07:13.093 --> 00:07:13.760 Yeah, totally. 00:07:13.760 --> 00:07:15.323 Yeah, stuff. 00:07:15.323 --> 00:07:16.240 What am I going to do? 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:18.970 I'm going to stuff and things and just throw it all in. 00:07:18.970 --> 00:07:20.502 That's a mechanic point of view. 00:07:20.502 --> 00:07:22.710 And I'm telling you that in order for your onboarding 00:07:22.710 --> 00:07:25.510 to have results, you need to go deeper. 00:07:25.510 --> 00:07:29.440 You need to establish beliefs in order to get them to buy. 00:07:29.440 --> 00:07:32.950 So with that in mind, I have a framework 00:07:32.950 --> 00:07:37.700 that I call M3, message, mechanics, math. 00:07:37.700 --> 00:07:40.990 These are three layers to your onboarding funnel or onboarding 00:07:40.990 --> 00:07:42.925 system that you have for your SaaS app. 00:07:42.925 --> 00:07:45.175 And this can really be applied to most other products. 00:07:45.175 --> 00:07:47.170 But we're talking about SaaS today. 00:07:47.170 --> 00:07:49.870 So at the first layer, you have the message. 00:07:49.870 --> 00:07:51.370 This is where you establish beliefs. 00:07:51.370 --> 00:07:53.420 And I'll go into this in a second. 00:07:53.420 --> 00:07:55.000 The second layer would be mechanics, 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:58.820 which is, what am I using to communicate my message. 00:07:58.820 --> 00:08:01.150 The third layer would be the math behind it. 00:08:01.150 --> 00:08:05.380 And this spans from cost of acquisition down to LTV, 00:08:05.380 --> 00:08:07.900 as in, how much is a customer worth to you. 00:08:07.900 --> 00:08:09.550 But also the math of conversions, 00:08:09.550 --> 00:08:11.680 how many conversions does your onboarding 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:13.270 need to produce every month in order 00:08:13.270 --> 00:08:15.820 for you to reach your goals of monthly active users 00:08:15.820 --> 00:08:17.910 and revenue that you're looking for. 00:08:17.910 --> 00:08:22.840 So math is just another layer of how to look at your onboarding 00:08:22.840 --> 00:08:23.800 funnel. 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:29.470 So these three things in mind, you actually 00:08:29.470 --> 00:08:32.549 need to start with message mapping. 00:08:32.549 --> 00:08:36.750 Before you think about blog post, webinars, videos, emails, 00:08:36.750 --> 00:08:39.210 before any of that comes, you need to first map 00:08:39.210 --> 00:08:43.568 out what the message needs to be across this onboarding period. 00:08:43.568 --> 00:08:45.610 On the right hand side, you have the a-ha moment, 00:08:45.610 --> 00:08:47.240 which is the end goal. 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:50.967 In between, you have beliefs and revelations, which 00:08:50.967 --> 00:08:52.050 I'll get into in a second. 00:08:52.050 --> 00:08:53.467 And the starting point on the left is 00:08:53.467 --> 00:08:56.160 the existing persona where their beliefs. 00:08:56.160 --> 00:08:57.880 And they've just signed up for trial. 00:08:57.880 --> 00:09:01.470 So this starting point is, these people bring a set of beliefs 00:09:01.470 --> 00:09:02.250 into the trial. 00:09:02.250 --> 00:09:03.450 They just signed up. 00:09:03.450 --> 00:09:04.680 They've just started. 00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:07.920 So they have some sense of believing that your software 00:09:07.920 --> 00:09:08.640 could help them. 00:09:08.640 --> 00:09:09.810 They're not convinced yet. 00:09:09.810 --> 00:09:11.310 They're only signing up for a trial. 00:09:11.310 --> 00:09:14.880 But they have a sense of understanding of what it does. 00:09:14.880 --> 00:09:16.800 It's limited, but they understand something, 00:09:16.800 --> 00:09:19.170 they know something, they're doing something, 00:09:19.170 --> 00:09:20.650 they feel something. 00:09:20.650 --> 00:09:23.870 And they have a certain sense of beliefs about your software. 00:09:23.870 --> 00:09:25.590 It's all very limited at this point. 00:09:25.590 --> 00:09:26.882 They don't have a full picture. But you need 00:09:26.882 --> 00:09:30.390 to bring them and given that whole perspective. 00:09:30.390 --> 00:09:33.900 Now in between them starting and getting to the a-ha moment 00:09:33.900 --> 00:09:36.510 where they're paying for an account, 00:09:36.510 --> 00:09:39.690 you may have two beliefs or revelations 00:09:39.690 --> 00:09:42.030 that they need to have, or you may have eight. 00:09:42.030 --> 00:09:44.220 It depends on your software. 00:09:44.220 --> 00:09:46.530 It depends on what it is that people 00:09:46.530 --> 00:09:49.260 need to do in order to understand 00:09:49.260 --> 00:09:50.820 the value of your software. 00:09:50.820 --> 00:09:53.400 I'm using four, for illustration purposes. 00:09:53.400 --> 00:09:55.090 There may be fewer, there may be more. 00:09:55.090 --> 00:09:58.540 It's up to you to really pin down a couple of things. 00:09:58.540 --> 00:10:01.080 Number one, you should have a good understanding 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:03.840 of what behavior constitutes a good user. 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.840 And what do they need to do to get to the a-ha moment. 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:09.060 Maybe they need to install scripts on their website. 00:10:09.060 --> 00:10:10.980 Maybe they need to use certain functions or features 00:10:10.980 --> 00:10:12.780 within your software to get to the point 00:10:12.780 --> 00:10:15.240 where they're realizing the value of it. 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:17.460 So you want to understand that first. 00:10:17.460 --> 00:10:19.180 And I'm using four just for illustration. 00:10:19.180 --> 00:10:20.730 So let's look at these four. 00:10:20.730 --> 00:10:23.040 There are essentially four beliefs 00:10:23.040 --> 00:10:25.260 that lead to four revelations that will get them 00:10:25.260 --> 00:10:26.460 to the a-ha moment. 00:10:26.460 --> 00:10:27.190 So far so good? 00:10:27.190 --> 00:10:28.680 You're with me there? 00:10:28.680 --> 00:10:31.410 Now in your messaging, this comes 00:10:31.410 --> 00:10:32.803 before you even write an email. 00:10:32.803 --> 00:10:35.219 In your messaging, you need time to understand, OK, belief 00:10:35.219 --> 00:10:36.303 and revelation number one. What 00:10:36.303 --> 00:10:38.220 is revelation number one and what do they 00:10:38.220 --> 00:10:40.620 need to believe and what do I need 00:10:40.620 --> 00:10:44.130 to communicate in order for them to believe this 00:10:44.130 --> 00:10:46.218 and to have this revelation? 00:10:46.218 --> 00:10:47.010 It could be simple. 00:10:47.010 --> 00:10:49.537 It could be two paragraphs or it could be two pages 00:10:49.537 --> 00:10:51.120 long. You need to have understanding of what 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:52.530 you need to communicate, right? 00:10:52.530 --> 00:10:54.970 Same thing for belief and revelation 00:10:54.970 --> 00:10:57.460 two, three, and four. 00:10:57.460 --> 00:11:01.300 Now you can do this with different frameworks 00:11:01.300 --> 00:11:03.070 and different types of themes. 00:11:03.070 --> 00:11:06.370 So for belief and revelation number one, you can use proof, 00:11:06.370 --> 00:11:09.160 you can use promise, you his benefits, 00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:12.100 future pacing, behavior, overcoming objections, 00:11:12.100 --> 00:11:13.697 you can demonstrate and use story. 00:11:13.697 --> 00:11:15.280 These are just different ways that you 00:11:15.280 --> 00:11:18.690 can communicate belief and revelation number one, right? 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:21.947 So let's say revelation number one is, OK, for Hotjar, 00:11:21.947 --> 00:11:23.530 I need to install the tracking script. 00:11:23.530 --> 00:11:24.790 Very simple, very easy. 00:11:24.790 --> 00:11:26.290 People do this almost automatically because 00:11:26.290 --> 00:11:27.220 they want to use this software. 00:11:27.220 --> 00:11:29.060 That's just one step of the way. 00:11:29.060 --> 00:11:31.375 Now you want to attach a promise to that in order 00:11:31.375 --> 00:11:32.500 for them to actually do it. So you 00:11:32.500 --> 00:11:34.210 want to say something along the lines of, 00:11:34.210 --> 00:11:36.710 or you want to communicate that if you install this tracking script, 00:11:36.710 --> 00:11:38.770 you'll have accurate data, 00:11:38.770 --> 00:11:41.170 you'll be able to use the funnels, the heat 00:11:41.170 --> 00:11:44.830 maps, the click maps, all the different things that we use. 00:11:44.830 --> 00:11:47.530 So you want to give them the promise of what the outcome is. 00:11:47.530 --> 00:11:50.870 Very basic example, very straightforward, right? 00:11:50.870 --> 00:11:53.270 Other revelations could be more tricky such 00:11:53.270 --> 00:11:56.600 as, OK, it's not in our workflow right now to use heat maps. 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:59.720 But we should use heat maps because it'll 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:02.720 give us xyz benefits. 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.720 So you can use promises to communicate these beliefs. 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:08.540 You can use future pacing, where you describe the future of them 00:12:08.540 --> 00:12:09.830 using your app. 00:12:09.830 --> 00:12:13.760 You can use objections handling to overcome objections 00:12:13.760 --> 00:12:16.400 as to why they should be doing something within your app. 00:12:16.400 --> 00:12:19.820 So these are just examples of different types of themes 00:12:19.820 --> 00:12:22.610 and frameworks you can use to communicate each belief 00:12:22.610 --> 00:12:24.320 and revelation. 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:26.330 So far so good? 00:12:26.330 --> 00:12:26.830 Awesome. 00:12:26.830 --> 00:12:27.970 Cool. 00:12:27.970 --> 00:12:33.720 Now the mechanics of it are the emails, the Facebook ads, 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.410 AdWords maybe, LinkedIn, pages, blog posts. 00:12:37.410 --> 00:12:39.180 That's just the format of how you're 00:12:39.180 --> 00:12:41.160 communicating these things. 00:12:41.160 --> 00:12:43.680 So if you're using proof and promise 00:12:43.680 --> 00:12:45.510 to establish belief number one, maybe you 00:12:45.510 --> 00:12:47.430 do that in the form of an email. 00:12:47.430 --> 00:12:49.920 Maybe you don't need to do much else beyond that. 00:12:49.920 --> 00:12:52.320 For belief number two or revelation number two, maybe 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:54.360 you need to have a dedicated blog post that 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:57.420 describes whatever the belief is that they need to adopt. 00:12:57.420 --> 00:12:59.730 So this is where you sit down and map up 00:12:59.730 --> 00:13:03.030 the mechanics of your funnel. 00:13:03.030 --> 00:13:08.020 The math is the place where most people just kind of skip over 00:13:08.020 --> 00:13:09.860 or they don't know how to deal with it. 00:13:09.860 --> 00:13:11.770 One example of the math in this would 00:13:11.770 --> 00:13:15.970 be for how long your onboarding goes on. 00:13:15.970 --> 00:13:17.470 If it's for a 30 day trial, then you 00:13:17.470 --> 00:13:21.070 can usually split up into three phases, day 1 through 7, 00:13:21.070 --> 00:13:24.270 day 8 through 21, and day 22 through 30. 00:13:24.270 --> 00:13:26.020 Depends again on the length of your trial. 00:13:26.020 --> 00:13:27.550 But this is one part of the math. 00:13:27.550 --> 00:13:30.610 The other part of the math equation of everything 00:13:30.610 --> 00:13:34.330 is understanding of how many conversions you need or 00:13:34.330 --> 00:13:36.540 what your conversion goals are per month. 00:13:36.540 --> 00:13:39.730 So just a basic understanding of the math behind everything. 00:13:39.730 --> 00:13:42.275 So the message mechanics and math, you have the messaging, you 00:13:42.275 --> 00:13:44.650 have the mechanics of how you're going to deliver it, 00:13:44.650 --> 00:13:47.030 then you have the math portion, which is usually 00:13:47.030 --> 00:13:51.610 for an onboarding sequence that's over a 30 day trial, 00:13:51.610 --> 00:13:53.890 day 1 through 7 are the most critical days. 00:13:53.890 --> 00:13:55.570 If you don't convert them there, you're 00:13:55.570 --> 00:13:58.570 going to have a hard time converting them after. 00:13:58.570 --> 00:14:01.180 So don't be afraid of selling people 00:14:01.180 --> 00:14:07.390 on signing up and paying for your SaaS before day 7 is over. 00:14:07.390 --> 00:14:09.910 Like, don't wait till day 30 to sell them 00:14:09.910 --> 00:14:12.880 because chances are that at that point, 00:14:12.880 --> 00:14:15.078 they either haven't adopted the right beliefs, 00:14:15.078 --> 00:14:16.870 they haven't had the right revelations yet, and 00:14:16.870 --> 00:14:19.150 so you're going to have a hard time pitching them 00:14:19.150 --> 00:14:21.680 on something that they have barely used in 30 days 00:14:21.680 --> 00:14:23.620 and they don't see the value of. 00:14:23.620 --> 00:14:25.700 So day 1 through 7 is critical. 00:14:25.700 --> 00:14:28.210 This is where you want to establish beliefs and behavior 00:14:28.210 --> 00:14:31.000 and you can actually convert them at that point. 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.700 You can send the sales email on day 7 00:14:33.700 --> 00:14:37.060 and see if you can give them a deal or some kind of offer 00:14:37.060 --> 00:14:38.860 that's going to make it a no-brainer. 00:14:38.860 --> 00:14:41.050 And an offer doesn't have to be a discount. 00:14:41.050 --> 00:14:44.170 It could be, if you sign up now within the next two days, 00:14:44.170 --> 00:14:46.600 then we'll have one of our account specialists 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:49.262 give you an hour consultation right off the 00:14:49.262 --> 00:14:50.470 bat. You don't have to pay for it. 00:14:50.470 --> 00:14:53.230 It's free, but it is only available for you 00:14:53.230 --> 00:14:55.420 if you sign up over the next two days. 00:14:55.420 --> 00:14:57.400 So different ways you can make that offer. 00:14:57.400 --> 00:14:59.890 And then you have phase 2 and 3, which is just in between. 00:14:59.890 --> 00:15:03.437 If no pay conversion has occurred after day 7, 00:15:03.437 --> 00:15:05.020 then you want to reaffirm the beliefs. 00:15:05.020 --> 00:15:06.562 You want to show up everywhere, which is, 00:15:06.562 --> 00:15:10.330 you want to have retargeting happening on Facebook, Google 00:15:10.330 --> 00:15:12.847 AdWords, and LinkedIn. 00:15:12.847 --> 00:15:14.680 You can even personalize your outreach here. So 00:15:14.680 --> 00:15:16.930 you might have someone on your inside sales team 00:15:16.930 --> 00:15:18.823 reach out to people directly via email 00:15:18.823 --> 00:15:20.990 and see if there's anything they can do to help you. 00:15:20.990 --> 00:15:24.240 And then the final phase, day 20 or so to 30, 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:25.720 continue to reaffirm beliefs. 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:27.370 But now you focus on the sale. 00:15:27.370 --> 00:15:29.050 And so you reiterate promises. 00:15:29.050 --> 00:15:30.730 You reiterate proof. 00:15:30.730 --> 00:15:34.460 And you generally push them towards making a sale, right? 00:15:34.460 --> 00:15:36.160 You want to make it so that there's 00:15:36.160 --> 00:15:39.130 no question that for them to continue using your SaaS app, 00:15:39.130 --> 00:15:40.600 they have to pay. 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:42.500 Make sense so far? 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:44.450 Beautiful. 00:15:44.450 --> 00:15:47.920 Now I'm going to quickly recap and maybe I 00:15:47.920 --> 00:15:49.580 can take some questions after this. 00:15:49.580 --> 00:15:52.100 But this is an overview of everything we talked about. 00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:55.240 So getting users to the a-ha moment is paramount. 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:58.510 To get there, they need to have a series of revelations 00:15:58.510 --> 00:16:00.820 that require beliefs and that requires 00:16:00.820 --> 00:16:03.340 them to do something, know something, and feel something. 00:16:03.340 --> 00:16:05.530 But most important, it requires beliefs. 00:16:05.530 --> 00:16:08.110 And your onboarding needs to establish and reaffirm 00:16:08.110 --> 00:16:09.280 these beliefs. 00:16:09.280 --> 00:16:11.800 So start with the message maps where you map out 00:16:11.800 --> 00:16:14.500 the revelations and beliefs they need to have, 00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:18.610 plan out what mechanics you'll use, use a variety of them. 00:16:18.610 --> 00:16:19.960 Don't only rely on emails. 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:21.580 Use a variety of different formatting. 00:16:21.580 --> 00:16:23.650 Maybe you do a video for one belief. 00:16:23.650 --> 00:16:27.700 Maybe you'd use a landing page with dedicated content 00:16:27.700 --> 00:16:28.510 for another one. 00:16:28.510 --> 00:16:31.900 Maybe even use a podcast episode to establish another belief. 00:16:31.900 --> 00:16:34.750 So have variety in how you deliver it. 00:16:34.750 --> 00:16:36.430 Align it all with the math. 00:16:36.430 --> 00:16:40.150 So the time period of your trial, the conversions 00:16:40.150 --> 00:16:44.060 needed to make it profitable and actually useful for you, 00:16:44.060 --> 00:16:45.370 and then plot it out. 00:16:45.370 --> 00:16:48.820 Go live and as a conversion copywriter, 00:16:48.820 --> 00:16:51.950 I cannot stress enough the need for iterating and testing, 00:16:51.950 --> 00:16:52.450 as well. 00:16:52.450 --> 00:16:52.950 JOANNA: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, 00:16:52.950 --> 00:16:56.490 yes, yes, yes. 00:16:56.490 --> 00:16:57.810 It's a quick kind of scope. 00:16:57.810 --> 00:17:00.310 Hopefully that gives people a sense of what's really needed. 00:17:00.310 --> 00:17:03.370 And I would say, don't go any further 00:17:03.370 --> 00:17:05.780 until you've established this. 00:17:05.780 --> 00:17:07.900 Don't think about blog posts or emails yet. 00:17:07.900 --> 00:17:10.630 Establish this first because this will make or break 00:17:10.630 --> 00:17:12.040 your onboarding. 00:17:12.040 --> 00:17:13.750 Mechanics won't make or break it. 00:17:13.750 --> 00:17:16.670 The math could make or break it if your conversions are awful. 00:17:16.670 --> 00:17:18.700 But if your conversions are awful, 00:17:18.700 --> 00:17:22.630 it means that your message is wrong somewhere. 00:17:22.630 --> 00:17:24.765 So, Sam, thank you. SAM 00:17:24.765 --> 00:17:25.390 WOODS: Yes. 00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:26.950 I have questions. 00:17:26.950 --> 00:17:29.340 [INAUDIBLE] questions I got questions. 00:17:32.170 --> 00:17:34.330 What are some strategies or tips or techniques 00:17:34.330 --> 00:17:37.420 you have for actually finding your a-ha moment 00:17:37.420 --> 00:17:38.540 in the first place? 00:17:38.540 --> 00:17:39.040 Yeah. 00:17:41.723 --> 00:17:43.390 And there are two ways to approach that. 00:17:43.390 --> 00:17:47.590 If you're a relatively new SaaS company 00:17:47.590 --> 00:17:54.220 and you don't have enough volume of users who have paid for it 00:17:54.220 --> 00:17:57.650 and who are using it, that's tricky because at that point, 00:17:57.650 --> 00:17:59.950 you might not even be sure what your a-ha moment is. 00:17:59.950 --> 00:18:03.290 So at that point, you need to rely on qualitative research, 00:18:03.290 --> 00:18:06.070 which is, for the people who are using it, 00:18:06.070 --> 00:18:11.027 however many they are, and are using it for a period of time, 00:18:11.027 --> 00:18:12.610 probably more than a couple of months. 00:18:12.610 --> 00:18:16.360 My guess is that if your churn is high after three or four 00:18:16.360 --> 00:18:18.760 months, then that's a place to start looking 00:18:18.760 --> 00:18:20.650 at where people start churning. 00:18:20.650 --> 00:18:22.560 And so, talking to people who have left 00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:25.060 and people who are right at that moment where the most churn 00:18:25.060 --> 00:18:25.580 occurs. 00:18:25.580 --> 00:18:27.580 Churn being people who stop using it altogether. 00:18:27.580 --> 00:18:28.440 JOANNA: Right. 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:30.370 SAM WOODS: So talk to the people who left. 00:18:30.370 --> 00:18:32.890 And then talk to the people who are 00:18:32.890 --> 00:18:36.160 right about that timeframe where they might actually leave. 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.230 Ask them questions, especially people who left. 00:18:38.230 --> 00:18:39.813 Like, what was it that made you leave? Like, 00:18:39.813 --> 00:18:42.640 what was it that you didn't see the value of? 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:45.310 And the people who might be about to leave, 00:18:45.310 --> 00:18:48.025 just judging by time, talk to them about and ask the 00:18:48.025 --> 00:18:50.530 questions of, you've been using 00:18:50.530 --> 00:18:53.320 this app for the past three months, let's say. 00:18:53.320 --> 00:18:55.180 How is it working for you? 00:18:55.180 --> 00:18:56.350 Are you finding it useful? 00:18:56.350 --> 00:18:59.350 How is it fitting in with your process? 00:18:59.350 --> 00:19:02.710 What impact is this piece of software having? 00:19:02.710 --> 00:19:05.350 If they're saying overwhelmingly, I don't know. 00:19:05.350 --> 00:19:07.235 I'm not really getting much of an impact, 00:19:07.235 --> 00:19:09.610 then that's a clear indication that they actually haven't reached 00:19:09.610 --> 00:19:11.170 their a-ha moment yet. 00:19:11.170 --> 00:19:13.930 And you need to then reframe those questions 00:19:13.930 --> 00:19:15.430 and get to the point where-- 00:19:15.430 --> 00:19:19.430 ignoring the SaaS for a minute, if something like this existed, 00:19:19.430 --> 00:19:23.050 what would make it so that you'd never want to leave? 00:19:23.050 --> 00:19:27.490 At that point, remove your SaaS from the equation. 00:19:27.490 --> 00:19:30.760 Just ask them, if something like this existed, maybe not even 00:19:30.760 --> 00:19:34.270 my SaaS right now, what about it would 00:19:34.270 --> 00:19:37.540 need to exist in order for that to be a no-brainer for you? 00:19:37.540 --> 00:19:40.400 So you want to have that conversation with them. 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:40.900 Yeah. 00:19:40.900 --> 00:19:42.250 That's awesome. 00:19:42.250 --> 00:19:45.380 And then I'm wondering about the-- 00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:47.300 I know there are more questions. 00:19:47.300 --> 00:19:50.231 Sorry, but I still have questions. 00:19:50.231 --> 00:19:51.640 So got a 30 day trial. 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:53.140 Let's say you get to the a-ha moment 00:19:53.140 --> 00:19:54.340 in the first 4 to 7 days. 00:19:54.340 --> 00:19:55.510 They actually get there. 00:19:55.510 --> 00:19:57.700 But it's a 30 day trial and they know 00:19:57.700 --> 00:20:01.300 they have another however many days where they can 00:20:01.300 --> 00:20:03.250 use the product without paying. 00:20:03.250 --> 00:20:07.560 Do you wait in that weird 2 week middle period? 00:20:07.560 --> 00:20:09.060 Do you keep emailing them every day? I 00:20:09.060 --> 00:20:10.435 actually had a talk with people at PDQ 00:20:10.435 --> 00:20:13.620 when I was out there last week about, 00:20:13.620 --> 00:20:16.360 do you send emails every day? 00:20:16.360 --> 00:20:18.370 What's your take on that, Sam? 00:20:18.370 --> 00:20:21.490 So if someone has that a-ha moment, 00:20:21.490 --> 00:20:24.962 the most important thing is, and this depends on the economics. 00:20:24.962 --> 00:20:26.920 But the most important thing is to actually get 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.650 them to commit to a payment and make a payment. 00:20:29.650 --> 00:20:33.460 Whether you do a pro-rated payment for the first month 00:20:33.460 --> 00:20:36.130 or whether you give them an offer they can't refuse, 00:20:36.130 --> 00:20:37.840 this is where offer comes into play. 00:20:37.840 --> 00:20:40.540 And so let's say on like day 6, they're 00:20:40.540 --> 00:20:43.210 displaying all the indications of someone 00:20:43.210 --> 00:20:45.080 who's reached the a-ha moment. 00:20:45.080 --> 00:20:47.962 At that point when they're in that high, reach out to them 00:20:47.962 --> 00:20:48.920 and make them an offer. 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:50.580 It doesn't have to be discount. 00:20:50.580 --> 00:20:53.390 You could use it if your economics make sense. 00:20:53.390 --> 00:20:55.940 But rather, look for ways to get them to go, you know what? 00:20:55.940 --> 00:20:58.065 Yeah, I'm going to pay for this because I'm getting all these other 00:20:58.065 --> 00:20:59.720 things such as. 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:04.910 Maybe that you give them three 1-hour sessions of special help 00:21:04.910 --> 00:21:07.520 from a consultant that's on your company. 00:21:07.520 --> 00:21:09.980 Maybe you give them, I don't know, direct access 00:21:09.980 --> 00:21:12.272 to the CEO for a couple of days. 00:21:12.272 --> 00:21:14.730 Give them an offer that makes them go, yeah, you know what? 00:21:14.730 --> 00:21:15.470 I'll do it. 00:21:15.470 --> 00:21:19.940 So that the pain of paying is mitigated in the sense that 00:21:19.940 --> 00:21:23.780 they go, yeah, I'll pay $50 right now or even a prorated 00:21:23.780 --> 00:21:27.290 amount of $30-something If I get all these other things, too. So 00:21:27.290 --> 00:21:29.030 I would focus on making that offer. 00:21:29.030 --> 00:21:32.032 Once they've converted, then obviously 00:21:32.032 --> 00:21:33.740 don't send them anymore onboarding stuff. 00:21:33.740 --> 00:21:36.650 If they're still hesitating and they haven't taken up 00:21:36.650 --> 00:21:39.320 your offer at the end of those seven days, 00:21:39.320 --> 00:21:43.310 taken you up on your offer, the next few emails I would say, 00:21:43.310 --> 00:21:46.220 you want to keep having them use the app. 00:21:46.220 --> 00:21:47.870 At that point, maybe you consider 00:21:47.870 --> 00:21:50.120 sending a different type of onboarding sequence 00:21:50.120 --> 00:21:54.410 where it's more about them extracting value out of the app 00:21:54.410 --> 00:21:56.700 as opposed to getting them to do certain things. 00:21:56.700 --> 00:21:58.742 Maybe you don't need to reaffirm beliefs anymore. But at that 00:21:58.742 --> 00:22:01.820 point, just gently show them proof, 00:22:01.820 --> 00:22:05.877 gently show them future pacing where, you're using it now. 00:22:05.877 --> 00:22:08.210 But imagine if you didn't have this six months from now. 00:22:08.210 --> 00:22:09.020 What would that be like? 00:22:09.020 --> 00:22:10.562 Your life would probably suck, right? So you want to 00:22:10.562 --> 00:22:13.490 have a push and pull, a bit of a pain, 00:22:13.490 --> 00:22:14.840 a bit of promise. 00:22:14.840 --> 00:22:17.910 And nudge them and keep repeating your offer. 00:22:17.910 --> 00:22:19.640 And maybe even change up your offer. 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:23.450 Maybe next time you send an offer on day 14, 00:22:23.450 --> 00:22:24.950 you're offering something different. 00:22:24.950 --> 00:22:28.080 Maybe it's an info product along with your app as well. 00:22:28.080 --> 00:22:28.580 Yeah. 00:22:28.580 --> 00:22:29.540 Sweet. 00:22:29.540 --> 00:22:32.106 OK, I'm not going to take my questions anymore. 00:22:32.106 --> 00:22:34.220 [INAUDIBLE] sorry, guys. 00:22:34.220 --> 00:22:34.720 OK. 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:39.770 So UP asked, how do you position for claim? 00:22:39.770 --> 00:22:41.390 Is it the value process-- oh, sorry. 00:22:41.390 --> 00:22:42.932 Before we get into that, Sam, can you go back to 00:22:42.932 --> 00:22:45.027 the recap slide and just put that up 00:22:45.027 --> 00:22:45.860 on there for people? 00:22:45.860 --> 00:22:47.120 Yeah. 00:22:47.120 --> 00:22:48.410 Awesome, thank you. 00:22:48.410 --> 00:22:50.930 So then the question was, how do you position for claim? 00:22:50.930 --> 00:22:53.620 Is it the value proposition? 00:22:53.620 --> 00:22:56.810 So a claim would be, it could be the value prop. 00:22:56.810 --> 00:22:59.510 But most of the time for assess app, 00:22:59.510 --> 00:23:03.470 it's a claim about a feature and what it does for you. 00:23:03.470 --> 00:23:07.400 So easy example, Hotjar heat maps. 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:09.938 A claim about not just, oh, we have heat maps. 00:23:09.938 --> 00:23:10.730 And then that's it. 00:23:10.730 --> 00:23:15.530 You want to say, heat maps so that X outcome happens for you. 00:23:15.530 --> 00:23:18.200 That's a claim you're making about a particular feature. 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.050 Or Airstory, which I love to use, 00:23:21.050 --> 00:23:24.050 one thing to claim there would be cards 00:23:24.050 --> 00:23:27.000 and what kind of outcome they give me. 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:29.300 Like for me, cards as an example, 00:23:29.300 --> 00:23:30.980 I couldn't use Airstory without it 00:23:30.980 --> 00:23:32.660 because I rely during my research 00:23:32.660 --> 00:23:35.050 on picking snippets here and there. 00:23:35.050 --> 00:23:37.790 And so that functionality of cards from me 00:23:37.790 --> 00:23:40.448 helps me do research without feeling 00:23:40.448 --> 00:23:41.990 like I'm being interrupted and having 00:23:41.990 --> 00:23:44.073 to stop every few minutes to take notes of things. I 00:23:44.073 --> 00:23:47.070 can do my research uninterruptedly, almost stream 00:23:47.070 --> 00:23:50.220 of consciously, and it just flows. 00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:52.030 So there's uninterrupted research. 00:23:52.030 --> 00:23:54.030 So that's a claim about cards. 00:23:54.030 --> 00:23:56.810 That's a claim that I might use if I wrote some copy for you 00:23:56.810 --> 00:24:00.070 guys, hint, hint. 00:24:00.070 --> 00:24:00.810 But you see? 00:24:00.810 --> 00:24:02.730 It's a claim about not just what it is, 00:24:02.730 --> 00:24:04.030 but what it can help you do. 00:24:04.030 --> 00:24:08.600 And then proof would be a testimonial or maybe a video 00:24:08.600 --> 00:24:11.930 that shows, a sped up video taken over the course of two 00:24:11.930 --> 00:24:13.890 hours but is done like two minutes, 00:24:13.890 --> 00:24:16.570 really fast that shows me just doing uninterrupted research. 00:24:16.570 --> 00:24:18.050 And that looks pretty cool. 00:24:18.050 --> 00:24:21.680 I'd love to have just a stream of uninterrupted flow 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:25.820 where I feel tapped into the research that I'm doing. 00:24:25.820 --> 00:24:28.040 So proof and then benefits would then 00:24:28.040 --> 00:24:30.080 be, what that helps me accomplish. 00:24:30.080 --> 00:24:31.303 Yeah. 00:24:31.303 --> 00:24:32.470 We'll talk about the whole-- 00:24:32.470 --> 00:24:35.490 [LAUGHING] 00:24:35.490 --> 00:24:36.480 Awesome. 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:40.400 Kate asks, OK, message mapping is an interesting concept. 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:42.200 Do you have any suggested resources 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:45.660 that go into the idea of message mapping more? 00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:49.340 So nothing-- so I don't think this exists anywhere. 00:24:49.340 --> 00:24:51.530 I think this is something I came up with. 00:24:51.530 --> 00:24:53.900 So I'm not going to discuss it any further. 00:24:53.900 --> 00:24:58.730 But I am putting together some type of PDF that has my top 8 00:24:58.730 --> 00:25:01.688 message maps that I use. 00:25:01.688 --> 00:25:03.230 And I can share that when it's ready. 00:25:03.230 --> 00:25:05.630 Probably two weeks from now it'll be ready. 00:25:05.630 --> 00:25:08.540 But what I would say is, it's just 00:25:08.540 --> 00:25:11.690 a matter of understanding storytelling, understanding 00:25:11.690 --> 00:25:13.850 human emotions, understanding what 00:25:13.850 --> 00:25:17.840 it is, what it takes to persuade someone of something. 00:25:17.840 --> 00:25:22.127 There are frameworks like Oren Klaff, his book Pitch Anything, 00:25:22.127 --> 00:25:24.710 or Pitch Master, whatever, Pitch Anything I think it's called. 00:25:24.710 --> 00:25:29.180 He has a framework that he follows to persuade someone. 00:25:29.180 --> 00:25:32.090 Look into any sales training and every sales guru out there 00:25:32.090 --> 00:25:34.040 has some type of step by step framework 00:25:34.040 --> 00:25:36.320 that they think is what you use to convince someone. 00:25:36.320 --> 00:25:38.600 So message mapping is really only 00:25:38.600 --> 00:25:42.110 about having a baseline understanding of storytelling, 00:25:42.110 --> 00:25:46.010 understanding what it takes to persuade someone of something, 00:25:46.010 --> 00:25:51.350 understanding how humans think, and how beliefs are formed. 00:25:51.350 --> 00:25:53.510 And then you put that into a string 00:25:53.510 --> 00:25:57.140 of messages that have to be communicated 00:25:57.140 --> 00:25:59.020 over a period of time. 00:25:59.020 --> 00:25:59.960 Is that all? 00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:01.520 Is that all that's required? 00:26:01.520 --> 00:26:03.170 That's it. 00:26:03.170 --> 00:26:04.326 Anyone can do that. 00:26:04.326 --> 00:26:05.000 [LAUGHING] 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:05.600 OK. 00:26:05.600 --> 00:26:06.277 Everybody stop. 00:26:06.277 --> 00:26:07.610 We'll just go do that right now. 00:26:07.610 --> 00:26:09.318 Let's go do it right now and that's it. No, 00:26:09.318 --> 00:26:12.680 but that's-- so I've just found over my work over 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:15.050 the past few years, I have about 8, 00:26:15.050 --> 00:26:19.520 maybe 10 or so message maps that I use that I rely on to quickly 00:26:19.520 --> 00:26:21.980 create copy that could be slaughtered 00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:25.650 in for an onboarding, it could be used for a lead magnet type 00:26:25.650 --> 00:26:26.150 of funnel. It could be 00:26:26.150 --> 00:26:27.900 used for all kinds of funnels. Yeah, yeah. 00:26:28.820 --> 00:26:32.270 So on that note, we had a link to a responsecopy.com 00:26:32.270 --> 00:26:34.790 in the email today. 00:26:34.790 --> 00:26:35.770 Where can people go? 00:26:35.770 --> 00:26:37.520 Not that we're done, but just a side note, 00:26:37.520 --> 00:26:40.310 if they wanted to get these message maps from you? 00:26:40.310 --> 00:26:42.620 So be my friend on Facebook. 00:26:42.620 --> 00:26:43.508 JOANNA: Oh, OK. 00:26:43.508 --> 00:26:44.840 Facebook it is. 00:26:44.840 --> 00:26:45.980 Yeah Samuel Woods. 00:26:45.980 --> 00:26:46.730 You can search me. 00:26:46.730 --> 00:26:48.930 I'm friends with you, Joanna, so people can really 00:26:48.930 --> 00:26:51.620 look at friends list and find me there, too. 00:26:51.620 --> 00:26:55.560 But I don't do much content marketing. 00:26:55.560 --> 00:26:57.490 I don't do much blogging. 00:26:57.490 --> 00:26:59.240 If and when it's ready or when it's ready, 00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:00.560 I will share it on Facebook. You can 00:27:00.560 --> 00:27:04.440 say hey guys, ta-da, here it is. 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:08.420 So find me on Facebook and be my friend, however desperate 00:27:08.420 --> 00:27:09.825 that might sound. 00:27:09.825 --> 00:27:10.700 JOANNA: Be my friend. 00:27:10.700 --> 00:27:11.660 I'll give you things. 00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:13.700 Please be my friend. 00:27:13.700 --> 00:27:14.200 OK. 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:17.210 Val, hello Val, asked, do you work with other team members 00:27:17.210 --> 00:27:20.360 on things like Facebook ad copy, podcast episodes, blog posts, 00:27:20.360 --> 00:27:22.900 help docs, et cetera to help the message and voice 00:27:22.900 --> 00:27:24.760 align across the various channels 00:27:24.760 --> 00:27:26.630 a trial user interacts with? 00:27:26.630 --> 00:27:30.260 Or [INAUDIBLE] changing from integrating those pieces 00:27:30.260 --> 00:27:31.930 of copy for your customers? 00:27:31.930 --> 00:27:36.580 [INAUDIBLE] or get in there? 00:27:36.580 --> 00:27:38.410 It can be done either way. 00:27:38.410 --> 00:27:41.890 I've done it both ways, either working with a team 00:27:41.890 --> 00:27:42.947 and help them do it. 00:27:42.947 --> 00:27:44.530 And usually, that starts with everyone 00:27:44.530 --> 00:27:46.330 getting on the same page with a message map 00:27:46.330 --> 00:27:48.010 that we'll be using. 00:27:48.010 --> 00:27:50.570 And so it can certainly be done that way. 00:27:50.570 --> 00:27:52.600 And I would say, you'll get a lot more done 00:27:52.600 --> 00:27:56.480 with a lot more creativity if you use more people. 00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:58.810 Or I've done it on my own. 00:27:58.810 --> 00:28:00.640 It's an either/or. 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:01.180 OK. 00:28:01.180 --> 00:28:01.940 That's cool. 00:28:02.170 --> 00:28:02.837 SAM WOODS: Yeah. 00:28:02.837 --> 00:28:05.440 Arielle asks, is there someplace I can read up 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:07.240 on the how, do, and feel side? 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:09.220 Because we only got into belief today? 00:28:09.220 --> 00:28:10.154 [INAUDIBLE] 00:28:13.350 --> 00:28:13.850 Yes. 00:28:13.850 --> 00:28:15.410 There are books on this. 00:28:15.410 --> 00:28:18.060 One of my favorite books on this, and let me 00:28:18.060 --> 00:28:20.730 see if I can spot it right now, if I can show it on the screen. 00:28:20.730 --> 00:28:21.230 Maybe not. 00:28:21.230 --> 00:28:26.540 So there's a book by Steven Reese called Who Am I? 00:28:26.540 --> 00:28:30.560 And he's a psychologist who has done research 00:28:30.560 --> 00:28:32.570 into human motivations. 00:28:32.570 --> 00:28:37.580 And his model of this is that there are 16 basic desires 00:28:37.580 --> 00:28:42.500 or intrinsic motivators that people operate from. 00:28:42.500 --> 00:28:45.950 Things like approval, things like security. 00:28:45.950 --> 00:28:48.950 So the intrinsic motivation is something that comes from you 00:28:48.950 --> 00:28:52.430 and you don't have to be motivated from outside. 00:28:52.430 --> 00:28:55.282 So extrinsic would be outside motivation. 00:28:55.282 --> 00:28:56.990 Like I'm holding a carrot in front of you 00:28:56.990 --> 00:28:58.190 and you want to eat it. 00:28:58.190 --> 00:29:00.320 Intrinsic motivation, that sense would be, 00:29:00.320 --> 00:29:02.960 I really love carrots so I have a natural drive 00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:04.490 to eat your carrot. 00:29:04.490 --> 00:29:06.488 So intrinsic motivations is powerful. 00:29:06.488 --> 00:29:08.030 And that's where a lot of these ideas 00:29:08.030 --> 00:29:12.350 come from, which is, people have desires, people have feelings, 00:29:12.350 --> 00:29:15.960 and behavior sometimes drives feelings, too. 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:19.560 So it's not just that feelings drive behavior. 00:29:19.560 --> 00:29:21.310 Sometimes behavior drives feelings, too. 00:29:21.310 --> 00:29:24.650 So you want to read that book, Who Am I? question mark, 00:29:24.650 --> 00:29:26.755 by Steven Reese, which will give you a 00:29:26.755 --> 00:29:28.970 firm foundation in terms of different types 00:29:28.970 --> 00:29:30.630 of intrinsic motivations. 00:29:30.630 --> 00:29:33.920 And there's a rabbit hole you can go down, too, 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:36.520 with a lot more books that talk about this. 00:29:36.520 --> 00:29:38.520 But that's a good starting point. 00:29:38.520 --> 00:29:42.650 There's another one by Gerald Zaltman, Z, Zaltman, 00:29:42.650 --> 00:29:44.090 How Customers Think. 00:29:44.090 --> 00:29:46.850 That's another book that's really good about these things, 00:29:46.850 --> 00:29:47.910 too. 00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:53.360 And a lot of this is a baseline psychology, human behavior, 00:29:53.360 --> 00:29:56.690 desires, and beliefs drive a lot of things that we do. 00:29:56.690 --> 00:30:00.300 It drives a lot of behavior that we're displaying. 00:30:00.300 --> 00:30:04.040 And the reason I covered beliefs and knowing and doing 00:30:04.040 --> 00:30:06.195 and feeling is that, you don't just want someone 00:30:06.195 --> 00:30:07.070 to believe something. 00:30:07.070 --> 00:30:09.320 You want them to also feel something. 00:30:09.320 --> 00:30:11.280 Those things usually go hand in hand, right? So 00:30:11.280 --> 00:30:12.905 you want them to know, you want them to have 00:30:12.905 --> 00:30:14.930 a logical justification, which 00:30:14.930 --> 00:30:18.290 is a knowing part, of what they are about to do or are doing. 00:30:20.860 --> 00:30:22.950 And a logical justification as to why they're 00:30:22.950 --> 00:30:24.330 feeling, what they're feeling. 00:30:24.330 --> 00:30:26.070 And a logical justification as to why 00:30:26.070 --> 00:30:27.720 they believe what they believe. 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:32.700 So all those things work together to drive behavior. 00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:34.340 Interesting. 00:30:34.340 --> 00:30:34.980 Very cool. 00:30:35.250 --> 00:30:37.290 I've chatted over the links to both of those books 00:30:37.290 --> 00:30:38.082 that Sam mentioned. They're 00:30:38.082 --> 00:30:41.670 both on DOT.com, find them wherever you actually are. 00:30:41.670 --> 00:30:42.450 That is cool. 00:30:42.450 --> 00:30:45.253 So we're getting toward the end of the time I know. 00:30:45.253 --> 00:30:46.920 Your whole question didn't come through, 00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:49.065 if you want to retype it down below. 00:30:49.065 --> 00:30:51.800 So I'm just going to clear that one. 00:30:51.800 --> 00:30:54.150 There was a chart that you had in here 00:30:54.150 --> 00:30:58.110 that Lillian is asking for a copy of. 00:30:58.110 --> 00:31:00.390 Of course, the recording will have all 00:31:00.390 --> 00:31:01.950 of the things on the screen. 00:31:01.950 --> 00:31:04.533 So Lillian, just feel free to check out the recording. 00:31:04.533 --> 00:31:05.200 SAM WOODS: Yeah. 00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:06.690 UPS, another question. 00:31:06.690 --> 00:31:09.218 Can this be applied to service-based businesses? 00:31:09.218 --> 00:31:11.260 So we're talking about SaaS onboarding all month. 00:31:11.260 --> 00:31:12.990 But what about service-based businesses? 00:31:12.990 --> 00:31:13.490 Yes. So 00:31:13.490 --> 00:31:16.170 this model, this framework can 00:31:16.170 --> 00:31:21.300 be applied to e-commerce, service, SaaS, 00:31:21.300 --> 00:31:22.350 any type of funnel. 00:31:22.350 --> 00:31:26.580 I use this baseline model and my 8 to 10 message maps 00:31:26.580 --> 00:31:30.240 to write copy for monetization funnels 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:32.760 where someone has bought but now you want them to buy again, 00:31:32.760 --> 00:31:34.470 for lead acquisition funnels where 00:31:34.470 --> 00:31:36.030 it's about having someone sign up 00:31:36.030 --> 00:31:38.200 for a lead magnet of a different kind. 00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:44.400 It's applicable for all things, not just SaaS onboarding. 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:47.250 So copy is driven by context. 00:31:47.250 --> 00:31:50.040 So just keep that in mind, that you can apply this 00:31:50.040 --> 00:31:51.690 to any kind of funnel, whether it's 00:31:51.690 --> 00:31:54.780 on the front end or the back end or in between. 00:31:54.780 --> 00:31:57.570 Just make adjustments and modifications. 00:31:57.570 --> 00:32:00.078 So beliefs and revelations come into play 00:32:00.078 --> 00:32:02.370 whether it is for someone who's a lead or someone who's 00:32:02.370 --> 00:32:05.560 been a customer for 10 years and you want them to buy again. 00:32:05.560 --> 00:32:07.020 They still have beliefs, they still 00:32:07.020 --> 00:32:09.480 have revelations that they need to either be reminded of 00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:12.540 or to have a new revelation happen to them. 00:32:12.540 --> 00:32:13.040 JOANNA: OK. So 00:32:13.040 --> 00:32:14.510 yeah. 00:32:14.510 --> 00:32:17.750 And Sarah has chatted out the link to your Facebook page 00:32:17.750 --> 00:32:18.250 as well. 00:32:18.250 --> 00:32:21.510 So anybody who was wondering where it is, it is in the chat. 00:32:21.510 --> 00:32:23.360 Gustavo asked, what's a high churn rate? 00:32:23.360 --> 00:32:26.340 Is there an acceptable average churn? 00:32:26.340 --> 00:32:28.380 All dependent on your economics for your app. 00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:30.850 For some, 5% churn is a disaster. 00:32:30.850 --> 00:32:32.630 For others, that's not so bad. 00:32:32.630 --> 00:32:35.190 And we're talking on a monthly basis, right? 00:32:35.190 --> 00:32:37.190 For some, if the churn happens after four months 00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:39.482 and they made their money back, then that's not so bad. For 00:32:39.482 --> 00:32:41.100 others, that's an abject disaster 00:32:41.100 --> 00:32:42.558 and might even kill their SaaS app. So 00:32:42.558 --> 00:32:45.780 the short answer to a complex topic 00:32:45.780 --> 00:32:47.192 is, it depends on your economics. 00:32:47.192 --> 00:32:48.900 It depends on what the lifetime value is. It 00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:51.060 depends on what historically you've seen. 00:32:51.060 --> 00:32:54.600 It depends on how much revenue you need per month, 00:32:54.600 --> 00:32:55.710 all those things together. 00:32:55.710 --> 00:32:59.370 Again, 5% is really bad for some and not that bad for others. 00:32:59.370 --> 00:33:03.135 8% is awful for some or acceptable to others. 00:33:03.135 --> 00:33:05.460 Others want to be at 2% or 3%. 00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:06.770 It just depends. 00:33:06.770 --> 00:33:07.730 OK. 00:33:07.730 --> 00:33:09.230 I know we're over time for you, Sam. We 00:33:09.230 --> 00:33:10.060 have lots of questions. 00:33:10.060 --> 00:33:11.490 Do you have five more minutes to share? 00:33:11.490 --> 00:33:12.270 Yeah, totally. 00:33:12.270 --> 00:33:12.590 Happy to. 00:33:12.590 --> 00:33:13.090 Cool. Thank 00:33:13.090 --> 00:33:13.680 you. 00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:15.480 So Bobby says, hey Bobby, what do 00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:18.600 you use as bait or like an incentive 00:33:18.600 --> 00:33:22.170 to get people who are churning or who have churned to tell you 00:33:22.170 --> 00:33:22.960 why they did? Do you 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:25.570 use gift cards or something like that? 00:33:25.570 --> 00:33:26.070 Yeah. 00:33:26.070 --> 00:33:27.528 I've seen all kinds of things used. So if 00:33:27.528 --> 00:33:29.820 they're churning, it usually 00:33:29.820 --> 00:33:31.920 does not make sense to offer them more of your app 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.500 because they're going to say no to it. 00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:38.220 So I would find something that's industry appropriate for them, 00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:41.052 meaning like a gift card can go a long way. 00:33:41.052 --> 00:33:41.760 It certainly can. 00:33:41.760 --> 00:33:43.560 It's the easiest one. 00:33:43.560 --> 00:33:46.650 But it might be, let's say if you're HubSpot 00:33:46.650 --> 00:33:49.080 and they're churning, maybe they just 00:33:49.080 --> 00:33:51.000 don't want to use your software, but they 00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:52.917 would love to come to your inbound conference. Maybe you can 00:33:52.917 --> 00:33:54.972 comp them a ticket, for example, 00:33:54.972 --> 00:33:57.180 if there's a conference that you have or are hosting. 00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:59.910 So if you want to use gift cards, 00:33:59.910 --> 00:34:01.080 you can certainly do that. 00:34:01.080 --> 00:34:03.600 But think of something that will add value to their lives 00:34:03.600 --> 00:34:05.160 beyond just what your app is. 00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:07.930 Maybe it is a ticket to someone else's conference. 00:34:07.930 --> 00:34:10.830 Like maybe you just want to be mindful of that. 00:34:10.830 --> 00:34:14.550 And make it so that they feel appreciated, 00:34:14.550 --> 00:34:17.710 even if they are leaving and they'll never come back. 00:34:17.710 --> 00:34:19.255 That's the biggest thing. 00:34:19.255 --> 00:34:21.130 Sometimes you can even ask them, you can say, 00:34:21.130 --> 00:34:25.380 hey, I have a gift card to Starbucks or to Amazon.com. 00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:26.550 Which one do you want? 00:34:26.550 --> 00:34:27.732 Give them an option. 00:34:27.732 --> 00:34:28.232 Yeah. 00:34:28.232 --> 00:34:29.929 I like that. 00:34:29.929 --> 00:34:32.040 OK. 00:34:32.040 --> 00:34:33.478 So there are lost of questions. 00:34:33.478 --> 00:34:35.520 Anonymous says, should we push for an a-ha moment 00:34:35.520 --> 00:34:38.699 during a demo for new trialing users? 00:34:38.699 --> 00:34:40.920 Or should we string out beliefs/revelations 00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:43.710 throughout a trial period? 00:34:43.710 --> 00:34:45.280 You can. 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:48.330 You can try to at least plant the seeds of it. 00:34:48.330 --> 00:34:51.659 Usually, a revelation has to happen to someone. 00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:54.330 So you can't necessarily force it on people 00:34:54.330 --> 00:34:57.330 by talking about it. 00:34:57.330 --> 00:35:00.120 You want them to discover it as they're using the app 00:35:00.120 --> 00:35:03.550 or as they're using your stuff in their process or the data 00:35:03.550 --> 00:35:04.050 life. 00:35:04.050 --> 00:35:06.090 So you can plant the seeds for it. 00:35:06.090 --> 00:35:10.080 But don't expect it to work necessarily 00:35:10.080 --> 00:35:11.370 every single time or often. 00:35:11.370 --> 00:35:13.980 Because a revelation is something by definition 00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:16.620 that happens to you as you're doing something, 00:35:16.620 --> 00:35:18.510 I suppose something that's necessarily 00:35:18.510 --> 00:35:22.230 forced on you like, here's what you need to believe. 00:35:22.230 --> 00:35:24.420 You want people to draw conclusions on their own. 00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:25.980 That's probably the biggest lesson 00:35:25.980 --> 00:35:30.510 in this, which is, you guide them with leading content 00:35:30.510 --> 00:35:31.330 and questions. 00:35:31.330 --> 00:35:33.480 But you want them to feel like they're having 00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:35.515 this revelation themselves. 00:35:35.515 --> 00:35:37.140 Because there's nothing more persuasive 00:35:37.140 --> 00:35:38.910 than self-persuasion. 00:35:38.910 --> 00:35:41.890 If I convince myself that I reached a conclusion, 00:35:41.890 --> 00:35:44.830 it's very hard for someone to convince me otherwise. 00:35:44.830 --> 00:35:45.330 Yeah. 00:35:45.330 --> 00:35:46.320 Awesome. 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:47.520 OK, let's aim for this. 00:35:47.520 --> 00:35:50.670 There's lots more, but this is the last one. 00:35:50.670 --> 00:35:52.920 Bridget asks, what are the best sources 00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:56.850 to find out what your audience's beliefs are? 00:35:56.850 --> 00:35:58.470 So everyone exists-- 00:35:58.470 --> 00:36:00.060 and I'll try to shorten this because I 00:36:00.060 --> 00:36:01.310 can talk about this for hours. But 00:36:01.310 --> 00:36:05.590 there's an ecosystem in your market, 00:36:05.590 --> 00:36:07.740 not just with what they use but also 00:36:07.740 --> 00:36:09.450 with what people are saying. 00:36:09.450 --> 00:36:14.940 So by ecosystem, I mean, they have competitors saying things, 00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:16.560 they have colleagues saying things, 00:36:16.560 --> 00:36:18.750 they have other people saying things to them. 00:36:18.750 --> 00:36:20.940 They have things they tell themselves. 00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:25.650 So use an empathy map to map out what people are seeing, 00:36:25.650 --> 00:36:27.420 what they're hearing, what they're 00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:30.133 feeling, what they're doing. 00:36:30.133 --> 00:36:32.550 And you have to understand that all these impressions come 00:36:32.550 --> 00:36:34.650 from everywhere in the market. 00:36:34.650 --> 00:36:39.245 And so use an empathy map to map out 00:36:39.245 --> 00:36:41.370 those different modalities of what they're hearing, 00:36:41.370 --> 00:36:44.550 seeing, feeling, doing. 00:36:44.550 --> 00:36:46.200 Look at what competitors are saying, 00:36:46.200 --> 00:36:49.860 look at what industry news are saying. 00:36:49.860 --> 00:36:53.610 Like if I sold hardware in the past year, 00:36:53.610 --> 00:36:56.310 I would have played out the Bitcoin mining angle, 00:36:56.310 --> 00:36:57.130 for example. 00:36:57.130 --> 00:37:00.018 If I sold hardware to do stuff with computers, 00:37:00.018 --> 00:37:02.310 then I would say, OK, everyone is talking about Bitcoin 00:37:02.310 --> 00:37:04.620 and mining crypto currencies. 00:37:04.620 --> 00:37:07.590 Maybe I can use that angle to sell my hardware. 00:37:07.590 --> 00:37:10.050 So think beyond just the scope of what you're selling. 00:37:10.050 --> 00:37:13.185 Think about what the world is saying at large. 00:37:13.185 --> 00:37:15.560 But more specifically, what your market is talking about. 00:37:15.560 --> 00:37:18.360 What's the latest news item, right? 00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:20.170 Because that informs the leads. 00:37:20.170 --> 00:37:21.750 What are the classic books everyone 00:37:21.750 --> 00:37:23.100 in this industry are reading? 00:37:23.100 --> 00:37:25.207 If there's a top 10 list of books 00:37:25.207 --> 00:37:27.540 and the same books show up like it does for copywriters, 00:37:27.540 --> 00:37:30.480 like anytime you look at a copywriting top 10 book list, 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:32.760 there are usually five or six recurring books over 00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:33.840 and over again. 00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:38.980 Those books form beliefs for copywriters as a market. 00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:39.990 So look at that stuff. 00:37:39.990 --> 00:37:40.920 Yeah. 00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:41.700 OK. 00:37:41.700 --> 00:37:42.868 Sam, that is amazing. 00:37:42.868 --> 00:37:43.910 That is all the time we-- SAM 00:37:43.910 --> 00:37:44.500 WOODS: Awesome. 00:37:44.500 --> 00:37:45.875 I know it's very precious time. So 00:37:45.875 --> 00:37:49.050 Facebook.com/heysamwoods. 00:37:49.050 --> 00:37:50.410 That's also been chatted over. 00:37:50.410 --> 00:37:51.910 If you have a question that you want 00:37:51.910 --> 00:37:54.240 Sam to answer that you did not get answered today, 00:37:54.240 --> 00:37:57.150 just copy it right now, take it out of Q&A or chat, 00:37:57.150 --> 00:38:00.210 wherever it is, paste it over onto Sam's Facebook page. 00:38:00.210 --> 00:38:03.120 And hopefully he will be inundated with questions. 00:38:03.120 --> 00:38:05.064 [INAUDIBLE] 00:38:05.064 --> 00:38:07.010 Yay. 00:38:07.010 --> 00:38:10.440 Sam, thank you so much for all of your insight today. 00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:11.340 It's amazing. 00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:13.560 It's a lot in a small time frame on a few slides. 00:38:13.560 --> 00:38:15.120 So hopefully it made sense for everyone. 00:38:15.120 --> 00:38:16.912 I asked you to do a lot in a little time. But I think 00:38:16.912 --> 00:38:19.260 [INAUDIBLE]. 00:38:19.260 --> 00:38:19.885 Thank you, 00:38:19.885 --> 00:38:21.302 Sam. And people know where to find you. Sarah, 00:38:21.302 --> 00:38:22.650 thanks so much as well. 00:38:22.650 --> 00:38:25.470 And thanks, everybody, for giving such great questions 00:38:25.470 --> 00:38:26.220 and participating. 00:38:26.220 --> 00:38:28.887 And we will see you next Tuesday for the next tutorial Tuesdays. Thanks, 00:38:28.887 --> 00:38:29.680 everyone. 00:38:29.680 --> 00:38:31.110 Thanks for having me, Joanna. 00:38:31.110 --> 00:38:31.780 JOANNA: Thanks. 00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:32.680 Bye. 00:38:32.680 --> 00:38:34.230 JOANNA: Bye.